Open Questions #4 - Diminishing Values On Outbound Links
I somehow missed this question from the Open Questions post and I can’t help but answer it.
From Adsenser
I loved your SEO empire post. But I was wondering how much effect does a lot of links from a lot of indexed pages from the same domain have? I always thought that the search engines looked mainly at the number of different domain linking to you. Can you give some more info on this? Or do you use these pages to link to a lot of different domains?
This is a fantastic opener for a conversation on sitewide outbound links affects on other sites as well as the site itself. Which has been long debated but never cleared up, not because its too complicated just because theres so many myths its hard to work the fact from the fiction. To be clear in my answer I’m going to refer to the site giving the link as the “host site” and the site receiving the link as the “target site.” Just so I don’t have to play around with too much terminology.
The entire explanation of why sitewide links, main page links, subpage links, and reciprocal links work is based off a simple SEO law called Diminishing Values. It basically states that for every link whether it be recipricol, innerlink, or outbound link there is some form of consequence. Also, for every inbound link, innerlink accepted or reciprocal link there is a benefit.
SEO Law of Diminishing Values Diminishing Values = sum(benefits) > sum(consequences)
The need for the sum of the benefits to be greater than the sum of the consequences is essential because, as mentioned in my SEO Empire post there can’t be a negative relevancy for a site in relationship to a term. For example lets take the niche of cars. There’s a theoretical mass of car blogs. For the sake of the example we’ll say there are several thousand blogs on the subject of cars. Something in the industry happens that stirs all the bloggers such as SEMA having a car show or something. So all these car blogs blog about SEMA’s new car show coming out and give it a link. If these outbound links caused a consequence greater or equal to the valued benefit given to SEMA than all these blogs would drop in value as per the topic, cars. Thus the mass affect would be that of a negative relevancy, therefore sites with no relevancy but contain topic links would by all theory rank higher than the general census of on topic sites.
So the notion of an outbound link diminishing your sites value in equal proportion is just complete bubkiss and obviously not the way things actually work. Even if it was true and there was a compensation for on site SEO when an event in a niche happens the site hosting the event wouldn’t just rise in the rankings it would propel everyone else downwards causing more turbulence in the SERPS than what happens in actuality with just their site rising. It’s just simple SEO Theory 101, but sadly a lot of people believe it. There’s also a lot of sites that absolutely won’t link to any sites within their topic in fear that their rankings will suddenly plummet the moment they do. They’re under the greedy impression that they’re somehow hording their link value and that is in some way benefiting them. So with the assumption that an outbound link gives much more value to its target than it diminishes from its host everything in a sense balances out and outbound links become much less scary. This of course in no way says that the consequence to the host is a diminishment of any sort. It’s entire consequence could be 0 or as a lot of other people believe +X (some people think on topic outbound links actually adds to your sites relevancy). I haven’t personally seen one of my sites go up in rank after adding an outbound link but I’m open to the idea or to the future of the concept being reality.
I Practice What I Preach The Law of Diminishing Values is one of the reasons why BlueHatSEO is one of the only SEO blogs that has all dofollow comments as well as top commentators plugin on every page. Your comments will not hurt my rankings..I’ll say that one more time Your comments will not hurt my rankings. Whewww I feel better
Back To The Question Before we get into the meat of the question we’ll take a small scale example that we should all know the answer to. Q: If a host site writes an automated link exchange script that automatically does thousands of link exchanges and puts those links on a single subpage and all the target sites also have their link exchange page setup the same way on a subpage. Will the host site gain in value?
A: I’ll tell you straight up from personal experience. Yes it does. It’s simple to test if you don’t believe me go for it yourself
Now we’ll move up to a much larger scale with a specific on topic example using sitewide links. Q: If you own two 100k+ page lyric sites with lots of inbound links and very good indexing ratios, will putting a sitewide link to the other site on both raise both in value or keep them both the same?
A: Also from my personal experience, yes both will not only raise in value but they will skyrocket in value by in the upwards of 50% which can result in much higher rankings. Likewise this example can be done with any niche and any two large sites. Cross promote them with sitewide links between the two and see what happens. The results shouldn’t be surprising.
Now, on the large scale to the meat of the question. Q: If these two lyrics site cross compared all their inbound links from other sites and managed to get all the sites that link to lyric site A to also link to lyric site B to the point at which each increased in links by 100k (same as the number of increased links would of been with a sitewide link between the two) would both sites increase in value more-so than if they did the sitewide link instead?
A: Yes absolutely. This is a bit harder to test, but if you’ve been building an SEO Empire and each site’s inbound links are from your own sites than it becomes quite a bit easier to test and I’m certain you’ll find the results the same as I did.
Conclusion On a 1:1 ratio on a generalized population of relevant links vs non-relevant inbound links from separate domains/sites are still more effective than a sidewide link of the same magnitude. However! A sitewide link does benefit both sites to a very high degree. Just not to the degree that lots of other sites can accomplish.
Sorry that question took so long to answer. I didn’t just want to give you a blank and blunt answer. I wanted to actually answer it with logic and a reasoning that hopefully leads to an understanding of the ever so important WHY.
Comments (687)
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My thoughts exactly.
Something’s wrong with your captcha… I just wrote a long and thoughtful reply but captcha busted me. 8 + 9 does, in fact, equal 17.
Thanks guys and freemp3search had a great example i wish i would of thought of with link directories and software directories.
I know I haven’t posted in awhile so in case you missed it in your rss reader there were actually two posts today. The other is located here:
I’ve often wondered about the site-wide links issue. It always seemed to me a bit simplistic to say ’sitewide links are bad’.
I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the impact sitewide links would have on the other outbound links from the host site - would it decrease their value massively?
Great post Eli. Regarding the automated link exchange, here’s an example of a competitor of mine that offers link exchange and is doing pretty well in the SE’s: hxxp://xxx.taxhelpattorney.com .
Now the confusing part. An example of no outbound links that’s an authority site: wikipedia.
Great results, polar opposites, I need to look at this again. Anyone, any insights drop me a line at my blog, thanks.
Very nicely thought out and presented post Eli. I dig people that post on results they’ve tested and not just regurgitating what they’ve read. Great job.
S
@ Garrett
You are right. I have the same problem (challenge ) as him; almost all the competition in the niche iam in uses affiliate marketing. Because of all those links they rank higher. Its weird google doesn’t recognize affiliate links, but I’ll try being my own affiliate with all the tips from Eli
WOW, it is so nice to hear an expert say that do-follow comments DO NOT affect your rankings, there are so much misinformed and completely moronic notions flying around on this subject, and I always laugh when I hear them from those that don’t have a clue.
Everything you said makes a lot of sense, thanks!
Thanks, JR
SEO as in everyday life is completely full of misconceptions, myths, and bullshit.
It’s nice to read a post from bluehat again!
Just subscribed to your feed.Thank you.It’s tough as a business owner trying to determine who has the right info.
Thanks.
Awesome post. I’ve always heard that sitewide links (especially reciprical ones) are cancelled out by Google’s oversized brain.
Thanks for clearing that up.
-Brad
“I’ve always heard that sitewide links (especially reciprical ones) are cancelled out by Google’s oversized brain.”
Thanks Eli for making the experiment to clear up this question.
@Garrett
Thanks for checking that out and good point on the affiliate, I must do this soon. Thanks.
Awmagad, not one, but two new posts. My feedreader is tuned to scream to me when you post, and finally it did!
Great quality as allways. Looking forward to SEO Empire part 2. What am I going to do with those million indexed pages?
Good post Eli.
We’ve also had good luck using sitewide links on properties we’re cross promoting, we try and blend the links into the content so they’re not overt if a competitor comes sniffing with a spam report but basically, dropping sw links is what we’re doing.
Wondered how you’re finding this tactic work on properties you don’t own. I’m hesitant to use a site that’s hosted them in the past, feel the footprints they leave are telling and devalue their potential.
Have you found this to be the case and if so, how do you evaluate a site you don’t own as a possible spot to host sw links?
OK, so what you are saying is that putting (selling) outbound sitewide links on your site will not diminish its value. AND that receiving sitewide links will also not diminish your site’s value.
That seems to be counterintuitive to what I belive. I have been of the mindset to stay away from sitewide links because they tend to get you penalized more easily. Now I know for a fact (from experience at an old employer) that too many inbound links at the same time from a sitewide can and will penalize you.
I would love to hear more from you on this and swap stories!
Actually I never said there is no value drop for giving a sitewide link. I just said it wasn’t as much of a drop as the value that it gives. There is a consequence for placing a sitewide link. Although that consequence could be large to none at all. It’s just never greater than the benefit the other sites recieves. Also following the rule that no inbound link can hurt you no sitewide link can hurt you. There used to be a sandbox but that wasn’t necessarily a penalty for too many links, it was just a time buffer to test your site’s quality out. There is definitely no penalty that I’ve ever seen from too many links at once to a quality site.
To list an extreme example. I just recently this year got a sitewide link on collegehumor (2m+ links within two weeks) to a brand new site and it was a huge benefit. Never a penalty.
Eli, this is great news, everything I was reading said the opposite of your post! Thanks for keeping us properly informed!
JJ Atlantic City, NJ
We really should start a campaign to get Wordpress to be Do-Follow by default. So many people start blogging without even knowing that they are a no-follow blog. I mean this should be a choice and not on by default.
I have not only added the Do-Follow plugin but also Keyword Luv and Comment Luv. My commentators should love me off lol.
hola Amigo. will echo the sentiments, nice to see you back again, especially as a recent winner of our best seo blog awards..
coincidentally we run dofollow on both blogs and recent comments from all pages also.
one question tho, what exactly does “loving you off” mean? not sure were up for that
kev@seoibiza
You mentioned cross linking sites with 100k pages. I assume these are sites created by scripts.
I run a few hand written sites, which are well regarded by Google (all at page one). The sites have between 200-300 pages.
Do you think it would benefit me if I placed sitewide links at these sites pointing to another site that I want to promote?
Two points here: first, 100k anchor texts can have an effect much larger than 300 pages; second, you can risk loosing an auto generated site, but you can’t do the same with a 300 page site.
Thanks,
I have 2 or 3 questions on site wide links
2.Is it wise to have multiple anchor texts on these links? (As asked by net-work )
Good post - this is a concept that I’ve always wondered about, yet unfortunately never really experimented with.
The Law of Diminishing Values makes perfect sense though, and I like the example with car blogs.
Very good article, cleared up some misconceptions for me. It’s good to know healthy linking won’t hurt you.
—— שלמה ארצי
Thanks Eli, great post as always. Your blog is by far the most useful information resource there is. Thanks again.
Writing Ezine Articles
Glad to see you’re pack posting Eli!
I’m curious about if you have multiple sites that are being hosted on the same server, but on different domains. For instance, with your lyrics site, would those links count for much if the SE knows that both sites are on the same server, and even if they have the same WHOIS data?
Another question for the lyric site example. Aren’t reciprocal links worth very little now? So would you see much effect from that?
Thanks, and good to see some new posts!
This is a very enlightening post. It got me thinking, and maybe you already answered it in the post but I couldn’t get it in these terms - but what about targeted linking from non-relevant sites?
For Example: Site A is a software directory and Site B is a lyric directory. Site A and Site B each have 100k+ subpages. If Site A had 1k+ pages of “lyric software” subpages and Site B had no subpages related to software, then would the total effect of inbound links to Site B from Site A be greater than Site B’s links to Site A?
Thanks for answering my question!
Your definitely the best SEO blog I know. You really inspire me to do more SEO instead of doing only ppc.
I recently shut off my nofollow on comments to test this. It seems a lot of major SEO experts are starting to backtrack on the outbound links sucking link juice theory. Of course, since I’ve shut off no follow I’ve had to deal with a little bit more moderation. But, I’m hoping in the long run it helps more than it hurts.
I have a good feeling it will.
I agree with you. It is rubbish to think that giving out links from one’s site will diminish their sites link value.
This is a great post as it really dispels the myth of link having lower value if they exchange in same niche.
someone else who agrees, it all builds up authority, passing links out to relevent sites, rather than just holding all link juice into your site
just out of interest, what affiliate companies offer proper links rather than redirected ones? preferably in the uk
Great post! You explained this in much detail that even I could understand. I thought it was common knowledge that a pages PR would be passed through the links on the page, whether inbound or outbound. I didn’t realize that people thought the host could diminish in value due to those links.
Thanks for debunking this SEO myth for all of us.
Alan Mater
Another great post, I learn more from this blog than all other blogs combined. I’m working through each post trying to filter and understand. Great stuff!
Here’s a questions what if you create an outbound post on for each post on a blog along with links out on each summary of a post showing in the archives, home page, etc. That would be multiple links on many pages. Is that going to impact you negatively, positively, or neutrally?
If I’m working to get a smaller site initially indexed, I’ve noticed that some of the SEs favor the URLs that have outbound links to high PR pages. These get indexed first - but they don’t necessarily get higher PR or SERPs themselves.
Anyway, about dofollow, I run all my blogs and Pligg sites with nofollow disabled and I have no complaints about traffic or revenue… The key I’ve seen is just to not link to any penalized sites or ‘bad neighborhoods.’
So Eli, in your conclusion you stated:
“On a 1:1 ratio on a generalized population of relevant links vs non-relevant inbound links from separate domains/sites are still more effective than a sidewide link of the same magnitude.”
So then is there any difference between getting a relevant or non-relevant link to my site(s)? Such as the link that is now included here is from a ’seo’ site, yet it is going to my ‘plant’ site. I’m going on the “a link is a link is a link” theory that all links provide some effect, however, would this link be more effective if my site was about ’seo’?
I think it’s a shame that Google has such a masive impact on sites traffic and the algo is so secret and dyamic that webmasters etc have to spend a lot of time doing stuff just to get higher rank. I’m not blaming them, they have to do it.
If sites were rewarded for being useful then the web would be better because all this energy could actually be spent on making sites more usable or useful or pretty or cool.
Eli, Just found your blog. Great article. The do-follow has been addressed so many times before, incorrectly of course! So much so that I deactivated my do-follow plug-ins. Now I am going to go back and reactivate them.
I definitely need to take some time to go back and read some of your other posts. Seems you have a lot of knowledge as far as SEO and I am looking for some great information from someone who knows the facts.
Fantastic post. Been reading through your entries these last few weeks and realised just how much i’ve got to learn.
Thanks, James Namecake
Its always cool to see people who know what they’re talking about telling it like it is.
where did this idea that sitewide links don’t work come from anyway?
That helped clear up a lot. Your right so much myth and myth on top of myth it’s hard to know what to believe.
TheBloggerSource.com
I’ll Test your theory of Diminishing Values and if they are follow tags and you worry not of comments foreclosing your shop….you won’t mind a quick pillage? If so plz delete the comment…This is for my best friend…..Go BG
He has a site that deals in investment property, real estate, and Phoenix Foreclosures
Your site is awesome and I always enjoy reading your articles - Gratuitous Respect - Dubs
It’s funny how I’ve been doing SEO for many of my sites and I’ve never thought that adding relevant outbound links can actually help my ranking.
I’ll test it and see how it goes.
Thanks for the tip.
Andy
Crazy world when 5million webmasters thing the contrary to this 5million agree with you and 200million don’t know what to think.
Would be best it everyone just concentrated their time and effort on creating webpages that people wanted to link to because they were excellent and didn’t have to worry about the whole page rank thing.
Brilliant post –» as long as it turnes out to be the truth
In any case - I can smell that your thinking is based on a lot more realistic structure than a lot of the blogs out there. There is something like a ‘old and new testament’ in SEO too - A lot of people are still struggling with static ‘chisseld in stone’ regulations while some are moving on in greater realms of reality. You seem to be talking like one of the latter group… in SEO that is
The biggest problem is link spam when you have dofollow on your blog.
Have been a lot of east europeans spammers on my site lately …
But otherwise a good comment contribute to the quality of the blog and the domaine - so a dofollow is in order in that case!
Steen Öhman SEO Check - oneline marketing
Well dofollow is fine, but it attracts a lot of link spammers. Had some east european link spammers on my blogs last week.
I wonder how long Google will use links from blogs in the ranking of sites - there sure are a lot of junk comments.
Anyhow a good comment deserves a follow.
Thanks for the post.
Good to know that in linking to sites within my own business field, I’m not doing myself any harm.
Ta very much
Keith D
Hey
I always thought massively interlinking your sites was a bad thing. I have about 6 websites in the same niche but don’t link any of them as I always thought it would be bad (they are on the same server)
Based on this topic, if I were to sitewide link to them all I would see a massive boost in rankings.
So what do I do?
I would really appreciate an accurate answer on this
Thanks
WOW, it is so nice to hear an expert say that do-follow comments DO NOT affect your rankings, there are so much misinformed and completely moronic notions flying around on this subject, and I always laugh when I hear them from those that don’t have a clue.
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True you practice what you preach! I couldn’t believe this post appearing on the second page of a very competitive keyword that is not SEO related.
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“BlueHatSEO is one of the only SEO blogs that has all dofollow comments as well as top commentators plugin on every page.”
How can I set it?
“I think I am understanding what you are saying.\n\nThe problem I am having is finding a method whereby people will link with my site because of its content, and not because of any internal or external benefit of the link itself.\n\nThat is, if I understand the pure purpose of linking to a site to begin with, it is to have readily available articles or data that are valuable to one’s business, hobby or family.\n\nFor example, if I am a dentist, I might want to link my site to a dental technique research site, not with the thought of increasing or decreasing my search engine ranking, but rather to make sure I stay current with my profession.\n\nSo, the big reference sites get a lot of that kind of love.\n\nIt is the guy who is attempting to market something that is being marketing by tens of thousands or perhaps millions of people who has the problem of encouraging others to take the time and make the effort to link to his or her site.\n\nWhy would they do it?\n\nAs a matter offact, I think the data shows that people won’t do it unless there is real informational value on a site OR, there is cross linking going on by agreement having nothing to do with the value of the sites involved themselves.
For me, that kind of technique has the potential of undermining the purpose of a search engine to begin with. That is, a search engine needs to have the goal of bringing to the public’s attention the sites best able to answer a question or solve a problem for a consumer.
If the search engine is duped by cross linking having nothing to do with the intrinsic value of a site, how is that good for the consumer?
On the other hand, we might make an assumption that the sites with the most links, regardless of how they came to be, is the best for the public.
I find that to be a difficult proposition to accept.
However, it may be true. I just don’t know.
I wanted to comment about your question you answered regarding 2 sites with each are pointing to each other. I see this kind of marketing all the time… Especially lawyer sites… A lawyer gets one website with his own domain johnsmithlawyer.xyz for example and then he starts another site with the keywords in it minneapolisaccidentlawyer.xyz and then he pounds links between them… It works like a dream… you see both sites on page#1 and a backlink check reveals most of the inbound links come from the other site…it is used all the time…
Thanks for the great info…
Hi,
Thanks for this article, it’s made for an easy read!
Regards Dan
Stumbled across this post. How old is this post? FOr most businesses it’s better to target long term profit and many techniques described are most likely to be devalued by Google in the near future or already have been devalued.
Currently Google pays much more attention to authority of the link, not to the number of links.
Hello,
Thanks for the article some very good points.
All the best, Daniel
All this SEO can be too much and for every bit i read i just keep hoping that there will pop up a few competitors to google.
Even if this might have been overkill to me I liked the post and will definitely keep scrolling down to read some more.
Yeah, that’s a dandy of an article…SEO empire was a real sweetie too!
Thanks brotha
owen
My internal links for my site was at 510 and recently dropped to 107. While my Indexed Pages does say 530 (in webmaster tools).
I’m just wondering if this is just temporary, and will be re-updated and fixed. I know with new websites, it can fluctuate kind of randomly for no reason.
Good quality seo article and you do practice what you preach - I’ve watched and admired your site for ages. And … may I add offered sensible advice, and not radical black hat stuff.
Andy DIY-SEO-UK.co.uk
can’t believe i missed this article 2 years ago. ha! and still generating comments and readers. nice.
any thoughts on whether the shared info is still 100% relevant?
thanks for giving me such useful and great technique,this will help me in future.
thanks again!
Incredible seo post. I wish I had found it sooner.
Thanks
Thank you for clearing the topic. The only way to make the internet a good resource for information is to link your site or page to a good source relevant to your topic. Google does not only counts how many links are pointing to your site but also looks on how your site is contributing in the sharing of valuable content so don’t be afraid to spread link love.
baby cribs
Great article, i’ve been doing SEO on all my sites, and never thought about outbound links or site-wide links.
Thanks again
Don
Hi,
I’m new to SEO, thanks for sharing this post.
Kind regards
I also wanted to add that if you are wanting to add useful links on your site for visitors and not necessarily additions for ranking or authority I would definitely nofollow those bad boys.
Just a plug here, but if you are looking for a St. Louis PPC agency then check out Acumen Studio.
After read few of the posts on your website now, and I really like your way of blogging. I added
it to my favorites website list and will be checking back soon. Pls visit my site also and let me
know your opinion.
Agree that if a host site writes an automated link exchange script that automatically does thousands of link exchanges the host site does gain in value. Seen it done many times
Thanks
David
hey … great article , thank you man for sharing this information with us , you are the best .
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thanks for this info. It just confirms my thoughts on this.
I will do a blog post about this on my blog and do a link back to this post.
I will do a blog post about this on my blog
and do a link back to this post.
We found your post informative and concise. Blue Hat always has great information. **We, title=”Orlando Seo Consultant”> have always been avid readers. **
Since this article was written the content has stood the test of time. Your point rings true even more so now than in previous years.
Best regards!
Hi, I’m a first-time reader/commenter, so forgive me if I ask something that you’ve already clarified. You mentioned that comments do not hurt your rankings, but what about being vulnerable to spam? Doesn’t that hurt the general nature of your blog? Or do you hand-pick the good from the bad before making the comments public?
Thanks! Paula
Thanks for a such wonderful Post. I Learned a lot about the Blog. Please keep posting such informatics blogs because its helps us immensely.
Regards, SINGLE PHASE FILTERS
great article never heard the phrase before SEO Law of Diminishing Values
need to read what is being said a couple of times to get my head around it. as usual the overwhelm thing is present, i wasn’t even looking for info on this subject.
cheers
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